Re: Open Carry

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I recently talked to someone about Michigan's concealment permit
regulations (now it is easier than before, to get a permit...but
there are new restrictions in that you can't be within certain
distance of a school, in a church, on property of a University,
in a place that sells unpackaged liquor, or in a variety of
other places).

These restrictions sound just swell. After all, who wants
people running around shooting school kids in the playground,
right?

But as with many states, Michigan has its population
concentrated into a small area, principally the southeast corner
of the state. In this dense population, obviously, there have
to be schools - and lots of them. The problem arises when you
realise that there is an average of about 1 school per 3 square
miles in many cities.

I forget the exact distance from school property, but suffice it
to say that it is a lot more than 10 feet or so (I'm thinking
1,000 feet). Working the geography, you will notice that a the
bulk of people can not carry concealed in their own back yards,
perhaps in their own *homes* (?!) the way the law is written.
Furthermore, travelling is next to impossible, as you will pass
within "X yards" of a schoolyard, pretty much no matter where
you go.

But these are minor problems, which (one can HOPE) a judge will
resolve, should the need arise (Hopefully a judge will note that
passing by a schoolground, on your way to your destination, is
not the same as stalking a schoolyard with a gun - but then a
judge could easily rule the other way).

In the end, it is all about DESTINATIONS, and the right to carry
your weapon to a destination. Whenever I leave my house to go
somewhere, it is almost always to go to a particular
DESTINATION. Not just to burn up all the gas in my gas tank.

I for one believe that our sad Meijer shopper is completely
within his rights to carry his piece in the store. The store is
within its rights to *TELL* him that he must leave. They can
even call the police, as a "stand by", just in case things get
out of hand, and he refuses to leave.

In the great tradition of guns, carrying your personal
protection to the store has been an option which a citizen could
always exercise. Also, a store owner has always had the right
to say "excuse me, but we don't allow guns in our store" (but
oddly, Meijer sells shotguns and other long arms, btw). If a
shop owner says that, then you should say "Oh, sorry about
that. I didn't know your policy. I'll go lock this in my trunk
(or whatever)."

Maybe you'd think that the unfortunate Meijer shopper should
have KNOWN the store's policy, without asking (or without being
confronted to begin with). "Ignorance of the LAW is no excuse",
but ignorance of some picayune store policty should NOT land you
in jail. Ignorance of some retail corporation's store
regulations is a perfectly FINE excuse, until you are notified
of he existance of the regulation (then there is no
longer "ignorance", and you are probably tresspassing if you do
not comply)

The destination problem is a tough nut to crack. Michigan law
forbids carrying a gun in a church, temple or other house of
worship. What if I have a church, and I say it is ok to carry a
gun in *MY* church? Under Michigan law (in clear violation of
church/state seperation, and in clear violation of amendment 2),
I can't even declare my church "gun friendly". Same goes with a
private school or academy (Detroit has some of the toughest
schools in the country, and now, under this revised law, an
elderly, tenured teacher with a gun permit can't carry in those
very schools, for self defense (though a large number of her
students might be armed))

The real core of the "destination" problem is a POLICY issue.

You might try to say that a Meijer store is not a "public
place", though under many interpretations and situations, it is
treated quite similarly.

You might like to limit the places someone can go with their
personal protection firearm.

You may then say theatres, bars, restaraunts, schools, sports
events, large public gatherings, malls... keep on going. (In
fact, just about all of these places are now forbidden from
concealed carry in Michigan, under the new supposedly "relaxed"
laws).

In the end, what are you really doing?

You are saying "I don't want anyone to go to ANY place with
their gun, unless it is home, or the shooting range, or a public
street".

And that brings me (finally) to the conclusion... If we don't
want people going to any particular DESTINATION when they carry,
then what we are really saying is this:
We only want someone to carry, if they are doing so while
aimlessly wandering the streets, with no particular destination,
and no particular plans in mind"

In other words:

Don't take your gun to the store, to protect yourself in the
parking lot at 4 a.m. while you get baby formula from Meijer
(open 24 hours, by the way). That would make you a dangerous
character.

However, if you get in your car, with your gun, and cruise the
streets aimlessly, never stopping in a store or theatre, looking
for trouble ... well, that's an upstanding an sublime act of
good citizenry! We should support such behavior of aimless,
roving street vigilantes ... and punish the dad who lives in a
tough neighborhood, whose child needs a bandage from Meijer at 3
a.m. (because she rolled out of bed, and cut her arm, or
whatever).

Unless you allow destinations, and allow them broadly, the
ability to carry will only protect the aimless and the wandering
troublemakers. Not the people you probably want to see armed.

> On 11/03/03, Prairie Dawg wrote:
>> While respecting your right to wander around in public with
> a
>> hogleg pistol stuffed in your breeches if the state of
>> Michigan thinks you are entitled to do so, I have to ask why
>> you think a department store is a public place? It isn't.
>>
>> Why do you think it's necessary to wander around armed over
>> there between the cabbages and the potatoes? I can make a
>> pretty good argument that what you did violated store
> policy,
>> and you also musta pegged their insurance liability threat
>> meter.
>>

Re: Open Carry & gun control, 2/14/04, by Punchhowzer.

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